Curse

Hephaestus Ram · Feb 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDittric77

Can we PLEASE close this thread? There's a dead horse being mutilated over in the corner!

You can stop reading it at any time.... I'm still interested in what
people have to say on the subject.

Rakeman · Feb 14, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Paragons need a nerf in PvP and a buff in PvE. Of course, there are many ways to easily accomplish this, such as limiting Leadership to yourself and NON-Paragon allies.

Paragons are FAR from useless though. I think one problem is that people expect Paragons to REPLACE a monk... a Paragon simply COMPLIMENTS the monk... Imagine a group with 3 healing/prot monks in PvE... you probably wont do enough damage to effectively dispatch the enemy mobs. But then think of 2 monks and a Paragon. The Paragon brings both damage AND healing/prot/energy to the table. That is why the Paragon shines, not because he can replace a monk or ranger or etc., but because he can compliment them.

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Now they are okay in paraway team, but I challenge you to incorporate a single support paragon (paramedic; paraprot; parabattery) effectively in a team.

That would be easy, providing the team actually has some sort of sense as to what to expect out of the paragon.

But...they dont.

I dont think the challenge is finding a build or making it work.

Its finding people who are open minded and can look outside the box.

The paragon's cookie cutter broke, so apparently the whole class is broken.

glountz · Feb 14, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

That would be easy, providing the team actually has some sort of sense as to what to expect out of the paragon.

But...they dont.

I dont think the challenge is finding a build or making it work.

Its finding people who are open minded and can look outside the box.

The paragon's cookie cutter broke, so apparently the whole class is broken.

Paragons are now only useful in "niche" team, IMO. A lot like Trapper team, Full ele team, Full monk team, Full necro soul reaping abuse team..
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?"

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Paragons are now only useful in "niche" team, IMO. A lot like Trapper team, Full ele team, Full monk team, Full necro soul reaping abuse team..
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?"

What would you consider a balanced group?

Rakeman · Feb 14, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Paragons are now only useful in "niche" team, IMO. A lot like Trapper team, Full ele team, Full monk team, Full necro soul reaping abuse team..
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?"

I completely disagree to everything you just said. I only use my Paragon in balanced groups and do a pretty darn well job molding my build to fit the group's needs.

erfweiss · Feb 14, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.

If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role.

CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post.

Oh, I don't know what support role is? Gee, considering all it seems anyone wants is a "Main character", look at the Deep as a perfect example.

3 Shove Warriors
4 Heavy Nukers
4 Monks
1 Battery / SS

That's it. Do you see a support role in there other than monk? No. Because you all haven't figured out that anything else works, so you keep a cookie cutter attitude on how things are.

A healer is a support role. They support your ability to stay alive.

glountz · Feb 15, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

What would you consider a balanced group?

To me it is a group where a single profession does not represent more than 25% of the said group, and where the team strenght comes from the specialized but complementary role of each of this members. I.E the contrary of Searing Flames groups, Paraway groups, Zergway, Ranger spike etc...

Spura · Feb 15, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Shouts are not removable.
They are not interruptable.

While this is true, that only applies to 1 category(defensive buffs, incoming, SYG). Battery abilities(EF and Aria of zeal) are interruptible and Medic abilities (X of Restoration) are interruptible as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Theres no real viable paragon shout counter (hexes are removable, well of silence requires a corpse)

People didn't even try hard. All the usual warrior counters applied are hexes and conditions as well and as such counterable in the same way and you don't say that warrior counters are useless do you? Typical gvg where they had curses necro with vocal minorty and water ele and we had divert and spot removal on several characters, and at least 70% of the time I was unable to use shouts or chants. Necro burried it under faintheartedness, parasitic and shadow of fear. Since the same hexes needed to be removed from warriors as well it took a lot of time before divert was available for me. It's like being blinded as a warrior 70% of the time. It makes you way less of a threat.

In PvE areas with vocal minority it is practically impossible to use any shouts(pve groups being notoriously bad at hex removal and also prioritizing tanks and nukers over paragons regardless of the fact that faintheartedness and vocal minority don't affect those 2 builds).

As mentioned many times, I would vastly prefer Vocal minority as a spamable hex(say 5 recharge) that hindered shouts by making them recharge longer. (adding a flat 5 sec recharge to adren shout hurts as hell).

Guildmaster Cain · Feb 15, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Hmm I am happy with my paragon, though it was slightly nerfed is last update.

I use it mainly in PvE, and basically flew through prophesies in recordspeed.

My 2 cents on paragons: DONT use the spear, it sucks, ask yourself: why would you have 80 (plus 16 shield) armor and stay in the backline? Make a P/W keep tactics low, but spam Watch Yourself for UNLIMITED free energy. Give him/her a good sword and let it slash away. Use the sword to build up adrenaline that give free energy when you use chants/shouts. The acquired energy could be used for defense (healing/energy/conditionremover/hexremover) or offense (more dmg/critical hits etc). Personally I prefer going in with all the ... of Restoration skills and Mending Refrain (which should be called Echo Mending :P). Keep spamming shouts and chants to keep Echo Mending up all times on other players.

There u have a Paragon with: 96 armor level, good aggro-target (keep them away from casters), excellent group healing, unlimited energy.

I used my Paragon in FoW in a guild team, where I was the only tank. I can say it worked out pretty well.

Final Note: I also took Song of Power, a skill that should have been an elite ;P. Basically it gives the whole group a +4 energy regen. Very nice to keep going quickly through battles

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

To me it is a group where a single profession does not represent more than 25% of the said group, and where the team strenght comes from the specialized but complementary role of each of this members. I.E the contrary of Searing Flames groups, Paraway groups, Zergway, Ranger spike etc...

would you consider:

Command Paragon
Barrage Ranger with weapon spells
Minion Master
Prot Monk
Heal Monk
D/E Scythe Warden
W/P (second copy of go for the eyes) Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe
E/Me Searing Flames

to be a balanced PvE team?

Quote:

People didn't even try hard. All the usual warrior counters applied are hexes and conditions as well and as such counterable in the same way and you don't say that warrior counters are useless do you?

Warrior hate is about stopping damage, not buffs. Its irrelevant to compare it. Just using a movement hex or cripple is enough to stop a warrior.

Quote:

at least 70% of the time I was unable to use shouts or chants.

How many paragons were in your groups?

glountz · Feb 15, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

would you consider:

Command Paragon
Barrage Ranger with weapon spells
Minion Master
Prot Monk
Heal Monk
D/E Scythe Warden
W/P (second copy of go for the eyes) Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe
E/Me Searing Flames

to be a balanced PvE team?

Yes

. You owned me.
But your team would be more efective if there was multiple copies of Searing Flames, or multiple copies of barragers for a B/P team, or multiple paragons boosting eachother by taking e-management such as Energising chorus.
The build of your "command paragon" interests me also. Now, if a paragon is not paired with a Energising chorus other one, most skills like Stand your Ground are unaffordable.
And I don't deny the effectiveness of spear/damage boosting paragons.
The only two good party boosting skills left to paragons are GotY and Aggressive refrain. Until the next nerf.

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The only two good party boosting skills left to paragons are GotY and Aggressive refrain. Until the next nerf.

Ya, im waiting for a nerf on those.

The point really is to use Ward Against Foes/Melee, the Para/War/Derv/Ranger/MM to do damage, set enemy on fire via Anthem of FLame and the SF ele and the use You're on Fire! and alternating Watch Yourself! to buff the team's defense (Basically took Zinger's paragon tank and spread the skills across multiple characters) and the monks dont really have to do much work tanks to this very front heavy build.

The problem is, i can only make such a team if im team leader. A lot of PUGS want the holy triad of War/Monk/Nuker...meh.

Spura · Feb 15, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Warrior hate is about stopping damage, not buffs. Its irrelevant to compare it. Just using a movement hex or cripple is enough to stop a warrior.

No it is not. Movement hex or cripple is removed in the same way that Vocal Minority is removed. It is a very good comparison. If your argument is that Vocal minority isn't a counter because it is a hex and it can be removed, then movement reducing hex or condition is no warrior counter for the same reason, that is it can be removed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How many paragons were in your groups?

I was the only one(though vocal has ward AoE).

Btw another hex worth using against paragon is Spirit Shackles. That one is a killer for builds trying to use GtfE to power SYG.

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

No it is not. Movement hex or cripple is removed in the same way that Vocal Minority is removed. It is a very good comparison. If your argument is that Vocal minority isn't a counter because it is a hex and it can be removed, then movement reducing hex or condition is no warrior counter for the same reason, that is it can be removed.

Perhaps i should be more clear.

Vocal minority isnt a real viable counter, because it is 1 skill, the sole skill that can shut a paragon down at the source of its true power, shouts/chants/echos. It is removable, even with cover hexes. Well of Silence requires a corpse and can be kited out of. These skills belong only Necromancers.

Spirit Shackles (how i LOVE Shack/Wrack) is a great skill, but still also just a hex. You've got Roaring Winds but its a spirit and it only stops energy based shouts, adrenal shouts are unaffected.

You can dump more hexes to stop a Paragon like Soothing Images, or E-Deny him, but at the end of the day, those counters have counters too and its still not strong enough to stop a multiple paragon team.

Warriors function of pressure and damage can be stopped by: other warriors, rangers, ganksassins, blindbots, elementalist wards, kiting, KD, body blocking, etc etc.

FoxBat · Feb 15, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Freezing gust spams. You can waste your 12s recharge holy veil on removing one, and it will be re-applied 5s later.

Y.T. · Feb 15, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

well my para is a mule now, i'm not going to delete her tho - mb anet'll unnerf paragons alittle bit in the future, but atm para's just another support char, and its nearly impossible to get into pug with para... it's alittle bit sad that anet mersilessly killed such a nice profession

Domino · Feb 15, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Paragon is the only GW class I couldn't stand. None of the shouts are particularly wow-ing.

The entire class seems very half-baked and unfocused imho.

cthulhu reborn · Feb 15, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

This whole discussion goes back to a fundamental problem with players...They don't want what they don't understand.

The whole idea that an entire profession is shot down because one skill got nerfed is ridiculous.

People have started playing with certain combo's to cover up for general lack of tactics. Are you an SF nuker? If not, we dont want you...

Even protection monks are often misunderstood in PvE...can you also take some heal?, they ask...

Ritu, can you go restoration? If you answer no, you are likely to get kicked.

People fail at missions many times because they don't know how to do it, they don't learn from their failure. And guess what? They blame the skills...or specific classes.

Even for normal missions, people have ideas of what they want and don't want in a team. Ane ele has to be a nuker, a warrior has to be a tank, a necro is MM or SS...heaven forbid he uses blood magic (except BiP in elite missions and DoA of course). Why all of this? Because there is a very limited supply of builds that are so powerful at a specific thing that even the biggest idiot can finish a mission with a group like that. Skills over skill, if you get my drift...

I have a paragon and it does just fine even now. It doesn't die so quickly actually and in normal PvE staying on your feet is a good thing...don't bash it cause you don't get it...

CDittric77 · Feb 16, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

I completely agree. People have contrived notions of what 'works' what 'doesn't' and what is 'most efficient'. I applaud ANet for making alterations and changes to the game that require us to think around situations, work creatively to use skills in concert accross a party or professions, and find the viewpoint of a certain way to do things foolish.

Does that mean that some things are NOT better than others in a certain situation? NO! But it does mean that you shouldn't turn down an entire profession because it either doesn't work the way you want, or it forces you to be creative with other characters (heaven forbid!).